Curse

FelixCarter · May 24, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Poor Gaile indeed...

I actually thought ANet was gonna get fed-up with all the complaints that GW1 was just gonna turn into a "farm all you want: 24/7! Anything and everything drops! Don't have money? Pwn a level 3 and watch the riches drop like wildfire!!!" game like RO turned into...

Methinks that's why GW2 is comming out... ANet is treating GW1 like the experiment that failed, and now they're going to put everything they did right into one game.

If you ask me, it's a darn good idea. But you didn't ask me, did you? Just keep nodding your head and pretend like you're listening.

-Loki- · May 24, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

How about some skill balances, since you guys kicked the alpha testers so you could use your awesomely powerful balancing methods and get balances out faster?

hallomik · May 24, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

If you go in the Dev Tracker thread, you'll see Gaile's been fairly busy. I'm pretty sure she reads the forums every day, and she posts where she feels she has something to constructive to add. If she's been posting less here, I think it's for a couple of reasons.

The maturity level on this site has been in a bit of a freefall lately. If you're the subject of routine, over-the-top attacks, exactly what would bring you back? My view is that she comports herself with dignity amidst shamefully spoiled adolescent self-pity.

The quality of the posts around here has been lousy, and yes this includes one I wish I never started which degenerated quickly into pointless flaming.

The relative quality of posts & maturity of the community is higher over at GWO, so she's finding more to contribute over there. Yes, they have their trolls there, too, but they're more outnumbered. If you want make a comparison for yourself, read the thread in GWO about loot scaling with a detailed statistical analysis and compare it to the thread in the farming section here in Guru full of childish attacks and posturing but precious little data. Ask yourself if you were a community rep, which thread would you rather participate in.

There's generally less to comment on these days. We're generally in a lull between HM and EotN. Interest will pick up the closer that game comes to release.

Finally, Gaile has learned there's little upside letting people know what's in the works because two bad things can happen. One, the thing may not materialize on time or ever, and unstable members of the community will cry about "broken promises." Or, two, the thing does materialize and people have built it up so much in their minds in anticipation, no matter how great it is, it falls short of their fevered imaginations.

Think about it. Alex Weekes is a very nice guy, but compare his level of interaction with GWG to Gaile's. He gets a very nice send-off as he goes to greener pastures, and forum members use that thread to take cheap shots at Gaile. Meanwhile, she has gone out of her way to freely share information, communicate regularly, and spend her Saturday's in-game giving previews and updates.

Still, she's a professional, and she will surely continue to visit and contribute where she can. She definitely doesn't need me to defend her. But, some regular contributors would do well to reflect upon their own behavior if they're really concerned about reduced contact from Anet.

hallomik · May 24, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

... and by the time I have my post written, she's already commented on this very thread - doh!

arcanemacabre · May 24, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I can tell you that since the most recent changes, player counts have risen.

In other words...

Overall player contentment will be determined by the rate at which players are increasing or decreasing playtime, and not what is expressed on fan forums. It is our opinion that the numbers and our sales do the talking, and no amount of bitching can overshadow the black and white figures. We have learned that we can do without beta testers for the most part, and we can do without the lip, as well.

So from now on, if you don't like it, don't bother complaining, just stop playing and stop spending money.

Sol Deathgard · May 24, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

Gaile's had a few blow ups recently on the forums, mostly tied to how much the game got botched after HM and loot scaling, as well as the unresolved soul reaping / mesmer / sunspear skill issues, and she's been pretty much derelict in her duties ever since. She kinda cracked, and I think Alex's departure is a signal.

Or maybe she's sick of everytime she says something's coming most of you brats assume it's coming in the next 24 hrs then cry, whine, complain, & threaten to hold your breath until you turn blue in the face because it hasn't happened yet. From half the crap I read here, I keep wondering to myself, "if you people are so unhappy with guild wars as you say, wth do you keep playing?"

Enko · May 24, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

In other words...

Overall player contentment will be determined by the rate at which players are increasing or decreasing playtime, and not what is expressed on fan forums. It is our opinion that the numbers and our sales do the talking, and no amount of bitching can overshadow the black and white figures. We have learned that we can do without beta testers for the most part, and we can do without the lip, as well.

So from now on, if you don't like it, don't bother complaining, just stop playing and stop spending money.

its responses like this which is probably why there's been less responses from anet.

what % of guild wars players does guru represent really? i would rather go use the hard figures they have instead of the impression you have of players by what goes on in a forum. sure you can get kind of an idea from a fan forum but you're not going to get the entire picture so stop acting like the guild wars universe revolves around guru. as stated before, why should Gaile bother to keep trying to inform players of the things they're working on when either way, they're going to get complaints like hallomik said.

you can just read this thread, read the complaints in it, multiply that by many times, and you'll see why there's been less response.

arcanemacabre · May 24, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Enko, the world, nor Anet need not revolve around Guru, or any other fan forum out there. However, in the past, they did actively listen to forums a lot more than they have recently. Yes, people complained then as they do now, but that is a fact of life, people complain all the time. They (Anet) can choose to still actively listen, and try to not be discouraged by unappreciative posts. They chose to just stop listening instead. They chose to view everyone as a number instead of as individual gamers, much like big corporations often do.

I'm not the least bit surprised at this, either. I'm also not necessarily faulting them for it, as I can kinda understand how hard it must be to keep up with constant requests and nagging from adoring fans. I'm simply trying to make it a little more clearer for those who can't read between the lines. Start speaking in numbers if that's all they're going to listen to.

aelyn · May 24, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

In other words...

Overall player contentment will be determined by the rate at which players are increasing or decreasing playtime, and not what is expressed on fan forums. It is our opinion that the numbers and our sales do the talking, and no amount of bitching can overshadow the black and white figures.

In addition to what Enko said, shouldn't this be the case? I mean, the people who really enjoy the recent updates are spending time playing instead of posting, while anybody who doesn't like it comes to the forums. Naturally, there will be a much higher rate of complaints then claims of praise and it makes sense that posted opinions are skewed negatively and not fully representative.

While the complaints obviously should be heard to some degree, I don't see any reason why Anet shouldn't look at a positive player count post-changes as an extremely encouraging sign (assuming statistical significance).

HawkofStorms · May 24, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Relly on what fan forums people say is ALWAYS a bad idea. After reading any forum like this for any game, you'll think that the game it's supporting is the worst one on the planet.

The elitists in lala land here on guru who bitch about HM because it isn't EXACTLY what they wanted and act like spoiled children who got their favorite treat or toy taken away from them are not representitve of the 3 million people who play this game.

arcanemacabre · May 24, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Relly on what fan forums people say is ALWAYS a bad idea.

I agree, but then again, I don't think anyone wants them to rely on the forums for player input. Responding and using suggestions and complaints from fan forums is hardly relying on them, it's using them as a tool. They're there to help, not to control and command. If you ignore them entirely, that's almost as bad if not worse than relying on them entirely.

I suggest to you that although there may be more people playing, and/or more copies being purchased, does not mean they are playing because of the changes, though that is what Gaile would probably believe or have you believe. They are playing because all in all, Guild Wars is a great game, especially for the price. It is, compared to what else is out there, an awesome game, no doubts there.

The changes, the ones that have happened, and the ones that aren't happening, are what is in dispute. The average joe player is not going to be concerned with the changes, they're just playing to play. The average joe fan forumite is concerned, and carries an opinion that may or may not reflect average joe player.

The point is, if they are indeed concerned with how the changes are being accepted by the general populace, they need to look where the changes are being noticed the most, and being replied on. That is exclusively the forums, not the chart with numbers on it. Of course that's only "if they are indeed concerned". I'm betting they aren't anymore. I'm betting that they are more concerned with the numbers.

FoxBat · May 24, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

The relative quality of posts & maturity of the community is higher over at GWO, so she's finding more to contribute over there.

Sad, but as I looked, true. That being the far bigger place (aka more idiots), I think stricter moderating must have set the tone there. Meanwhile a number of the mods here themselves are rather skilled at flaming.

Unfortunately you can't even mention things like GuildWiki's existence on GWO. That same stupid policy leaves their forums with poor skillcard support. It makes discussing anything intelligent more difficult.

hallomik · May 24, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

The point is, if they are indeed concerned with how the changes are being accepted by the general populace, they need to look where the changes are being noticed the most, and being replied on. That is exclusively the forums, not the chart with numbers on it. Of course that's only "if they are indeed concerned". I'm betting they aren't anymore. I'm betting that they are more concerned with the numbers.

I think they're clearly concerned with both active player stats and forum response. Both are predictors of future sales which is the ultimate bottom line for a gaming company. Which is the better predictor? I don't know.

I think Gaile is trying to say "hey, things aren't as bad as you guys may feel," rather than, "hey, we don't need your lousy opinions."

Pessimism, like optimism, is contagious and can become self-fulfilling. Given the torrent of negativity lately, it's a little tough to keep perspective these days. But a little perspective is all I think she was offering.

Thorondor Port · May 24, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

this is one huge internet forum arguement. wowzerss

arcanemacabre · May 24, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

Pessimism, like optimism, is contagious and can become self-fulfilling. Given the torrent of negativity lately, it's a little tough to keep perspective these days. But a little perspective is all I think she was offering.

Well that is true. She may have just been offering a little perspective. I don't really think there is any malicious intent in her post, nor really any of the others where people claim she's "yelling". I'm not really adressing her wording or her perspective, but rather what it represents - the possibility that this is the current way of thinking among the devs. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I don't think they're "out to get us" or rather "out to ignore us". Just concerned with the way things are heading by the behaviors of the devs, as expressed by Gaile.

I'm not being pessimistic, either. I consider myself more of a realist than a pessimist or an optimist. Like I said, I'm not surprised nor do I blame them, I'd probably do it too if I were in their shoes. Why bother continuing to actively listen to the forums, when they're always negative and the numbers show the opposite? The forums are obviously not in agreement and thus are terribly biased. I can fully reason with that.

Keep in mind, too, there is a lot on their plate right now. Not just GW:EN, but also GW2, and I'm sure they're working very hard on both of those. They have priorities, and as it should be, making money is #1. Whenever they spend a lot of time on something, be it skill balance (SR nerf), mechanic changes (loot scaling), or even new game modes (hard mode), that's a chunk of time that could have been spent on GW:EN or GW2, but wasn't. They thought those changes would be improvements to the game and most people would eat them up - so in the end, they figured they would be worth the time put into them.

Problem is, whether they were accepted or not really doesn't matter after they're rolled out. If people don't like it and they need to fix anything, well too much time was already 'wasted' on the changes - too bad. Remeber the big GUI visual upgrade last year? Just about everyone hated it. The solution? Deal with it. That's because they're not about to flush all that work down the drain just because it doesn't sit well with the players. Players are priority #2 - after money (of course time=money).

Of course we all know without players, no money. But hey, the game itself is still good, despite problems with the changes. New players will still come because they don't know how the game used to be - so no problems there. The more medicore the game gets with changes, it still is one of the best games out there, so why bother changing back?

An optimistic attitude will rely on that fact, that Guild Wars is still #1. A pessimistic attitude will say the game is ruined with every change that happens. I don't think either attitude is quite healthy, personally.

Gaile Gray · May 24, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

... and by the time I have my post written, she's already commented on this very thread - doh!

No, you hit many, many nails directly on the head. I'll be printing that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

In other words...

Overall player contentment will be determined by the rate at which players are increasing or decreasing playtime, and not what is expressed on fan forums. It is our opinion that the numbers and our sales do the talking, and no amount of bitching can overshadow the black and white figures. We have learned that we can do without beta testers for the most part, and we can do without the lip, as well.

So from now on, if you don't like it, don't bother complaining, just stop playing and stop spending money.

Lovely drama, but are you capable of accepting that what I wrote is exaclty what I intended to say? Someone said that players are leaving. I refuted it. That is all.

arcanemacabre · May 24, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Lovely drama, but are you capable of accepting that what I wrote is exaclty what I intended to say? Someone said that players are leaving. I refuted it. That is all.

It may be dramatic, but so far as I know it may not be a story.

Otherwise, I apologize for "putting words in your mouth". I meant it as my opinion on how I feel may explain the devs overall attitude toward forum complaints despite the rise in players or play-time.

unienaule · May 24, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Yay another flame Anet thread! Closing, and if you think I'm being a fanboy or some crap, go read policy on ranting/personal attacks.